[CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Andrew Wyatt
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Russell Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:09 AM, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > That presumes that your conservative attitude is the majority opinion
> > though. Systemd is one of the features that I have been looking forward
> > to in CentOS 7 because of the new capabilities it provides so while this
> > will surely drive some people away it will actually attract others and
> > if you think that this will lead to some sort of great exodus then I
> > think you are mistaken. Not everybody is this uncomfortable with change.
> >
> For the record, I'm not uncomfortable with change.  I'm uncomfortable with
> stupid,
> poorly thought out, monolithic change that ignores half a century of the
> UNIX philosophy.
> And creating a daemon that tries to handle everything but the kitchen sink
> and implementing
> it in such a way as to make it nearly incomprehensible to me certainly
> qualifies
> as that type of change.
>
> Sysvinit may not be perfect, but it's UNIX.  Systemd is...  a lot of
> things, but more
> of a windows-like solution than I"m comfortable with.  It's just dumb.
>  Surely there could
> have been a better way of accomplishing their goals without creating the
> equivalent of
> Cartman's Trapper Keeper.
>
> And yea, I'm kind of an old white guy (is 38 old?)  The guy who called
> that out as
> a negative is not helping his cause with me.  This old white guy has been
> doing Linux
> administration when some people on this list were pulling the hair of
> girls they liked
> and eating bugs.
>
> (and if that was yesterday, I don't want to hear about it. :))
>
>
This is an unfortunate problem in the community today, anyone who disagrees
with status-quo is "just an antique", it's insulting to say the least.  It
doesn't matter our experience, we're just "causing trouble" because we
"don't want change" which is an excuse that isn't even remotely true.
 Eventually when all these "old guys" leave, all that will be left are the
inexperienced kids and that's when the real problems will begin to surface.
 There are a few good reasons to adopt systemd, but the bad outweigh the
good in my opinion.  Then there's the problem of giving children the keys
to the kingdom (
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019664.html)
as they do run off the old guard so they can have their toys.

Personally, we've started evaluating migrating from CentOS 6 to FreeBSD
rather than CentOS 7.
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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Les Mikesell
In reply to this post by Lamar Owen
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 10:58 AM, Lamar Owen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> And dynamic spinup of servers to handle increased load is a use case for
> systemd's rapid bootup.  They go hand-in-hand.

Don't know about your servers, but ours take much, much longer for
their boot-time memory and hardware tests and initialization than
anything the old style sysvinit scripts do.

--
   Les Mikesell
      [hidden email]
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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Les Mikesell
In reply to this post by Andrew Wyatt
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Andrew Wyatt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> This is an unfortunate problem in the community today, anyone who disagrees
> with status-quo is "just an antique", it's insulting to say the least.  It
> doesn't matter our experience, we're just "causing trouble" because we
> "don't want change" which is an excuse that isn't even remotely true.
>  Eventually when all these "old guys" leave, all that will be left are the
> inexperienced kids and that's when the real problems will begin to surface.

The people promoting change most like do not have a large installed
base of their own complex programming to maintain or any staff to
retrain.

>  There are a few good reasons to adopt systemd, but the bad outweigh the
> good in my opinion.

My opinion is that if a new system is really better, then it should be
capable of handling everything the previous standard did
transparently.   If it can't, then it's not really better.  It is just
different.

--
   Les Mikesell
     [hidden email]
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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Steve Lindemann
In reply to this post by Russell Miller
On 7/8/2014 8:49 AM, Russell Miller wrote:

> For the record, I'm not uncomfortable with change.  I'm uncomfortable with stupid,
> poorly thought out, monolithic change that ignores half a century of the UNIX philosophy.
> And creating a daemon that tries to handle everything but the kitchen sink and implementing
> it in such a way as to make it nearly incomprehensible to me certainly qualifies
> as that type of change.
>
> Sysvinit may not be perfect, but it's UNIX.  Systemd is...  a lot of things, but more
> of a windows-like solution than I"m comfortable with.  It's just dumb.  Surely there could
> have been a better way of accomplishing their goals without creating the equivalent of
> Cartman's Trapper Keeper.
>
> And yea, I'm kind of an old white guy (is 38 old?)  The guy who called that out as
> a negative is not helping his cause with me.  This old white guy has been doing Linux
> administration when some people on this list were pulling the hair of girls they liked
> and eating bugs.
>
> (and if that was yesterday, I don't want to hear about it. :))
>
> --Russell

Well said.  Why are the old proven ways somehow so deficient that we
absolutely must replace them with something else, no matter how badly
thought out.  (yes I'm an old fart by some folks figuring, I actually
prefer the command line and started with punch cards and paper tape).

Change isn't bad... but change for change's sake is stupid and that's
what this looks like.  New is not always better.  Based on my
observations over the years, new is rarely better!  The more rapid the
change, the more radical the change, the more likely the change won't
stand the test of time, or rational thinking.  Do the analysis, really
do it without a bias toward a specific answer and sometimes, yes,
sometimes the answer is leave things alone, they work fine the way they
are.  Just because something is old doesn't mean it needs to be
replaced.  Of course, sometimes the answer is to make changes, but keep
them small, make them incrementally and give them time to prove
themselves before rushing headlong towards the next thing.

Sadly, poorly thought out change seem to be the trend, and not a
surprise given the number of folks with Windows backgrounds making their
way into the Linux world.  We are definitely loosing touch with the UNIX
philosophy and that was what made it a great operating system for doing
real work.

I started my work life as a maintainer and while I've done my fair share
of development, I've always thought like a maintainer.  Change almost
always breaks things, so do it carefully and slowly and with thought not
just about the local impact, but the global impact.  Please!
--
Steve
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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Lamar Owen
In reply to this post by Les Mikesell
On 07/08/2014 11:58 AM, Les Mikesell wrote:
> ... How much is this going to cost a typical company _just_ to keep
> their existing programs working the same way over the next decade
> (which is a relatively short time in terms of business-process changes)?

Les, this is the wrong question to ask.  The question I ask is 'What
will be my return on investment be, in potentially lower costs, to run
my programs in a different way?'  If there is no ROI, or a really long
ROI, well, I still have C6 to run until 2020 while I invest the time in
determining if a new way is better or not.  Fact is that all of the
major Linux distributions are going this way; do you really think all of
them would change if this change were stupid?

Even the Unix philosophy was new at one point.  Just because it works
doesn't mean it's the best that can be found.

> Even if the changes themselves are minor, you have to cover the cost
> of paying some number of people for that 'get used to the syntax'
> step. Personally I think Red Hat did everyone a disservice by
> splitting the development side off to fedora and divorcing it from the
> enterprise users that like the consistency.

Consistency is not the only goal.  Efficiency should trump consistency,
and I for one like being able to see where the direction lies well in
advance of EL adopting a feature blind.  Or don't you remember how Red
Hat Linux development used to be before Fedora and the openness of that
process?

(Leaving part of my .sig in for a change, as I'm wearing the CIO hat in
this post.)

--
Lamar Owen
Chief Information Officer
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute
...

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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Mauricio Tavares
In reply to this post by Tony Schreiner-2
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Tony Schreiner
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Russell Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:09 AM, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > That presumes that your conservative attitude is the majority opinion
>> > though. Systemd is one of the features that I have been looking forward
>> > to in CentOS 7 because of the new capabilities it provides so while this
>> > will surely drive some people away it will actually attract others and
>> > if you think that this will lead to some sort of great exodus then I
>> > think you are mistaken. Not everybody is this uncomfortable with change.
>> >
>> For the record, I'm not uncomfortable with change.  I'm uncomfortable with
>> stupid,
>> poorly thought out, monolithic change that ignores half a century of the
>> UNIX philosophy.
>> And creating a daemon that tries to handle everything but the kitchen sink
>> and implementing
>> it in such a way as to make it nearly incomprehensible to me certainly
>> qualifies
>> as that type of change.
>>
>> Sysvinit may not be perfect, but it's UNIX.  Systemd is...  a lot of
>> things, but more
>> of a windows-like solution than I"m comfortable with.  It's just dumb.
>>  Surely there could
>> have been a better way of accomplishing their goals without creating the
>> equivalent of
>> Cartman's Trapper Keeper.
>>
>> And yea, I'm kind of an old white guy (is 38 old?)  The guy who called
>> that out as
>> a negative is not helping his cause with me.  This old white guy has been
>> doing Linux
>> administration when some people on this list were pulling the hair of
>> girls they liked
>> and eating bugs.
>>
>> (and if that was yesterday, I don't want to hear about it. :))
>>
>> --Russell
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CentOS mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>>
>
>
> What's Windows-ish about it? It's all text files; easily available to look
> at.

      Windows used to have a single win.ini file with all configs in
it. Then it replaced that with a binary equivalent you access and
manipulate using programs or whatnot. I think the point is that is
where systemd is going to, and there are many good arguments for that.
But there are also compelling reasons against it.

Also, you as a developer/manager has to interact with this 2600lb
Gorilla (he gained some weight throughout the years) that is the OS
using libraries and programs that are poorly documented and rather
buggy. Or hack your way in. All that while hoping that ape will not
starting flinging poop your way for absolutely no reason (bugs,
security flaws, etc).

> And Solaris with SMF went in this direction many years ago.
>
      And so did Apple in a certain way (their plists and launchd and
so on). Was that an improvement? I honestly cannot answer that.

> Tony Schreiner
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Robert Moskowitz
In reply to this post by Russell Miller

On 07/08/2014 11:05 AM, Russell Miller wrote:

> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:58 AM, Reindl Harald <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> and the next one talking before try to get informations
>> there is no monolithic daemon damned
>>
>> there is one project with one source tree maintaining
>> a lot of daemons and binaries - so be quite before
>> you tried to learn some basics
> Generally when people get personal I figure I must have hit a nerve.
>
> I must have hit a nerve.
>
> I didn't say it was windows-like.  I said it was more windows-like than I was
> comfortable with.   Even with multiple daemons, It's still not very transparent,
> somewhat incomrehensible, documented poorly while still managing to have
> voluminous documentation, dumps stuff everywhere, and is just generally
> annoying.
>
> Even its sysv compatibility is incomplete.  It runs sysv scripts, but in such a
> way as to break any but the simplest.  I've run into situations where I've actually
> had to make a systemd unit because it broke the script, and I couldn't fix it.  The
> script was fine, ran perfectly if you just ran it, and systemd did... *something*...
> to it.  I still haven't figured out what.  And debugging is an absolute pain.

I am also struggling with this and the HIPL code (on F20).  If you just
start the services, it takes about 5 min to complete.  If you just run
the programs and tell them to drop into the background it is a handful
of seconds.  Strip out comments from the script and it starts right up
with systemctl.  Huh?  What is going on?  I was told that systemctl does
seem to try and make 'sense' out of comments...

>
> And that's all I'm saying in response to you.  Keep this up
> and my killfile will have one more entry.
>
> --Russell
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>

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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Scott Robbins
In reply to this post by mark-3
On Tue, Jul 08, 2014 at 10:27:41AM -0400, [hidden email] wrote:

> Scott Robbins wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 08, 2014 at 02:09:49PM +0200, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote:
> >> On 08.07.2014 13:57, Scott Robbins wrote:
>
> >
> > Very true. I do remember Adam Williamson of Fedora commenting on their
> > forums that he pictured many of the complainers about various changes,
> > including systemd, to be old white guys, which fit me to a T.
> <snip>
> So he's guilty of ageism, as well as aggressively NIH (Not Invented Here),
> and a faddist.... Did he actually have any *good*, persuasive reasons for
> such changes?

Wow.  This was my bad in assuming everyone knows who Adam is--a very good
natured and helpful person.  He was formerly with Mandriva, I think, and
came to Fedora where he has made enormous strides in seeing things from the
user standpoint, getting bugs filed, making Fedora a much better
distribution (and better documented), than it had been.  My statement's
implication, though of course, tongue in cheek, was that Even Adam
thinks....

So, for any friends or fans of Adam on this list, I apologize if that came
out as a putdown or anything more than a jesting complaint.


--
Scott Robbins
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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Fabio Almeida
In reply to this post by Oliver Schad
Hi all,

I’ll just say something about all this, I think mostly as a reflection, on my 15 years of Linux and Unix experience, as a user, as a network admin and as an Linux/Unix evangelist and Windows/Microsoft hater on my early years:

Systemd is a totally unnecessary change, it goes totally agains Unix philosophy.
But why not? Linux is already changing even POSIX standards by itself, regardless of any other Unix variant out there.
Linux already has proprietary firmwares, NDAs, and many other “non free” code/characteristics.
Linux is becoming a mess, today you can find software that runs just on specific distributions, Linux is becoming Windows in an awkward bad way, it’s is just not Microsoft, but when using on desktops, it crashes and get slow all the time, truly a Windows characteristic.

Maybe if you use a Hardcore distribution, you can probably get rid of these bugs, some for sure, but any mainstream distribution out there nowadays, it’s a failure on the desktop, never thought I would say that, but besides the know malware base, Windows today is way better on the desktop, it’s is stable, it’s is fast, it’s easy on the user.

On the server side it’s still the best for some applications, mainly because it has more proprietary drivers than any other OpenSource Unix variant, so if you need bleeding edge (or not so new) enterprise class functionality, Linux may be your only choice besides Windows, so, for some applications, not a hard choice to make.

Thankfully there will always be the BSD family, I’m not a big fan of FreeBSD, but for sure it’s very attractive, probably faster on many situations and rock solid. On the security side, for me OpenBSD is still unbeatable for Firewall, VPN and any other application where disk I/O is not an issue, it’s the state of the art of functionality and simplicity, it just works, secure by default, thats it.

So let Linux be Linux, Unix is another story, Linux may have been Unix for some time, Unix will continue to be Unix, and from now on, Linux will continue his evolution towards something new, hope for the better, if not there will always be alternatives ;)

Just to be clear: I mean no flames, just want to share my reflections on the subject, I’m still a faithfully Linux User/Admin.

Fabio Almeida

Em 08/07/2014, à(s) 12:28, Oliver Schad <[hidden email]> escreveu:

> On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 09:04:59 -0500
> Johnny Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> And this is indeed the crux of the matter ... systemd is NOT just
>> about booting or boot up time (combing posts here .. but this is the
>> answer to, why use this on a server where fast booting is not
>> important).  
>
> Systemd is emacs for booting without extension capabilities - so at
> least with no clue.
>
> The whole idea is to put stuff into a DSL which can't be formulated
> with a not turing complete language. To build something, which has nice
> shortcuts for many things: fine. But that has nothing to do with
> systemd.
>
> What you could build is a event system with nice hooks to place your
> code. And you could use that for many things, when it's damn simple and
> fast.
>
> But systemd is everything but not stupid simple. It's only stupid.
>
> Best Regards
> Oli
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Lamar Owen
In reply to this post by Les Mikesell
On 07/08/2014 12:06 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Don't know about your servers, but ours take much, much longer for
> their boot-time memory and hardware tests and initialization than
> anything the old style sysvinit scripts do.
Physical servers can be told to skip certain parts of their POST,
especially the memory test.  Memory tests are redundant with ECC. (I
know; I have an older SuperMicro server here that passes memory testing
in POST but throws nearly continuous ECC errors in operation; it does
operate, though).  If it fails during spinup, flag the failure while
spinning up another server.

Virtual servers have no need of POST (they also don't save as much
power; although dynamic load balancing can do some predictive heuristics
and spin up host hypervisors as needed and do live migration of server
processes dynamically).

To detect failures early, spin up every server in a rotating sequence
with a testing instance, and skip POST entirely.

If you have to, spin up the server in a stateless mode and put it to
sleep.  Then wake it up with dynamic state.

There are alot of possibilities here, if you're willing to think outside
the 1970's timesharing minicomputer box that gave rise to the historical
Unix philosophy.  And this has nothing to do with Windows; I have been a
primarily-Linux user since 1997.

Long POSTs need to go away, with better fault tolerance after spinup
being far more desirable, much like the promise of the old as dirt
Tandem NonStop system. (I say the 'promise' rather than the
'implementation' for a reason.....).

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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Scott Robbins
In reply to this post by Scott Robbins
On Tue, Jul 08, 2014 at 12:21:43PM -0400, Scott Robbins wrote:


> Wow.  This was my bad in assuming everyone knows who Adam is--a very good
> natured and helpful person.  

I should also add that Adam's comment was very tongue-in-cheek and aimed at
people who took it that way.  Again, I really apologize for taking that out
of context and expecting everyone to somehow magically grasp the context
especially as it seems it irked a few people.  He was saying it to me and a
few others, who he knows, and all fit the description, and it was certainly
meant as a joke.  


--
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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Robert Moskowitz
In reply to this post by Andrew Wyatt

On 07/08/2014 12:05 PM, Andrew Wyatt wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Russell Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:09 AM, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> That presumes that your conservative attitude is the majority opinion
>>> though. Systemd is one of the features that I have been looking forward
>>> to in CentOS 7 because of the new capabilities it provides so while this
>>> will surely drive some people away it will actually attract others and
>>> if you think that this will lead to some sort of great exodus then I
>>> think you are mistaken. Not everybody is this uncomfortable with change.
>>>
>> For the record, I'm not uncomfortable with change.  I'm uncomfortable with
>> stupid,
>> poorly thought out, monolithic change that ignores half a century of the
>> UNIX philosophy.
>> And creating a daemon that tries to handle everything but the kitchen sink
>> and implementing
>> it in such a way as to make it nearly incomprehensible to me certainly
>> qualifies
>> as that type of change.
>>
>> Sysvinit may not be perfect, but it's UNIX.  Systemd is...  a lot of
>> things, but more
>> of a windows-like solution than I"m comfortable with.  It's just dumb.
>>   Surely there could
>> have been a better way of accomplishing their goals without creating the
>> equivalent of
>> Cartman's Trapper Keeper.
>>
>> And yea, I'm kind of an old white guy (is 38 old?)  The guy who called
>> that out as
>> a negative is not helping his cause with me.  This old white guy has been
>> doing Linux
>> administration when some people on this list were pulling the hair of
>> girls they liked
>> and eating bugs.
>>
>> (and if that was yesterday, I don't want to hear about it. :))
>>
>>
> This is an unfortunate problem in the community today, anyone who disagrees
> with status-quo is "just an antique", it's insulting to say the least.  It
> doesn't matter our experience, we're just "causing trouble" because we
> "don't want change" which is an excuse that isn't even remotely true.
>   Eventually when all these "old guys" leave, all that will be left are the
> inexperienced kids and that's when the real problems will begin to surface.
>   There are a few good reasons to adopt systemd, but the bad outweigh the
> good in my opinion.  Then there's the problem of giving children the keys
> to the kingdom (
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019664.html)
> as they do run off the old guard so they can have their toys.

It is fun to attend a standards meeting (like IETF and IEEE 802) when
some young guys and gals, along with their profs make a presentation on
how things should REALLY be done.  Then that grey headed guy or gal
gentlely leads the Q&A into a critical edge case that completely breaks
the proposal.  At least in my area, we have the institutional memory of
why we do things as we done. Sometimes things evolve where we CAN do it
better now, or even have to do it better.  But us old dogs still have
the where-with-all to keep it all straight.

But also we are demanding more of our systems.  HSMs make dealing with
virtualization a must and this changes a lot of old assumptions.  
Remember what assume can spell.


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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Gilbert Sebenste
In reply to this post by Lamar Owen
On Tue, 8 Jul 2014, Lamar Owen wrote:

> Les, this is the wrong question to ask.  The question I ask is 'What
> will be my return on investment be, in potentially lower costs, to run
> my programs in a different way?'  If there is no ROI, or a really long
> ROI, well, I still have C6 to run until 2020 while I invest the time in
> determining if a new way is better or not.  Fact is that all of the
> major Linux distributions are going this way; do you really think all of
> them would change if this change were stupid?

Yes. Look at Microsoft and Windows 8 and a similar attitude of "get over
it, and just buy it". I'm not surprised that the head developer
was terminated days after its release. Lemmings think jumping off a
cliff is a good idea, too. Several designers thinking its a good idea
and implementing it across the board does NOT mean it's a good idea to the
end user.

> Even the Unix philosophy was new at one point.  Just because it works
> doesn't mean it's the best that can be found.

The Unix philosophy is not new, but blossomed after Windows put a
stranglehold on everything else.

> Consistency is not the only goal.  Efficiency should trump consistency,

I am darn sick and tired about hearing of "efficiency". Efficiency does
not 100% translate to effective productivity. Furthermore, user
satisfaction is not counted into efficiency. I have heard people complain
about air conditioners with extremely high efficiencies. The problem is
that they don't put out much cold air. If the product is ineffective,
very hard to work with, but efficient...I'd far rather use something much
less cumbersome and effective but being less efficient. That translates
to higher productivity and satisfaction, which you really want.
Effectiveness and satisfaction should go hand in hand with efficiency,
every time.

> (Leaving part of my .sig in for a change, as I'm wearing the CIO hat in
> this post.)

People will vote with their feet on this. And, that "old white men" are
complaining about this is ageist, racist, and demeaning to EVERYONE. I am
really disappointed in Red Hat saying this, far more than the
whole systemd concerns. As others have stated, change for the sake of
change isn't good. Slapping across the face your primary customer base
with deep insults isn't good, even if the customers are horribly wrong,
which is quite the opposite here. And trying to splash perfume on a
steaming dogpile is absurd.

Don't worry, if this attitude continues with Red Hat, I won't let my rear
hit the exit on the way out. And I'll do the best sort of advertising for
this that I can: tell others the nonsense that is occurring, and to stay
far away from it...

Gilbert

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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Gilbert Sebenste
In reply to this post by Scott Robbins
On Tue, 8 Jul 2014, Scott Robbins wrote:

> I should also add that Adam's comment was very tongue-in-cheek and aimed at
> people who took it that way.  Again, I really apologize for taking that out
> of context and expecting everyone to somehow magically grasp the context
> especially as it seems it irked a few people.  He was saying it to me and a
> few others, who he knows, and all fit the description, and it was certainly
> meant as a joke.

Thanks for clairfying that, Scott. I retract my comments in my previous
post suggesting that if he were serious, it was racist and ageist.

Gilbert

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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Robert Moskowitz
In reply to this post by Scott Robbins

On 07/08/2014 12:21 PM, Scott Robbins wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 08, 2014 at 10:27:41AM -0400, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Scott Robbins wrote:
>>> On Tue, Jul 08, 2014 at 02:09:49PM +0200, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote:
>>>> On 08.07.2014 13:57, Scott Robbins wrote:
>>> Very true. I do remember Adam Williamson of Fedora commenting on their
>>> forums that he pictured many of the complainers about various changes,
>>> including systemd, to be old white guys, which fit me to a T.
>> <snip>
>> So he's guilty of ageism, as well as aggressively NIH (Not Invented Here),
>> and a faddist.... Did he actually have any *good*, persuasive reasons for
>> such changes?
> Wow.  This was my bad in assuming everyone knows who Adam is--a very good
> natured and helpful person.  He was formerly with Mandriva, I think, and
> came to Fedora where he has made enormous strides in seeing things from the
> user standpoint, getting bugs filed, making Fedora a much better
> distribution (and better documented), than it had been.  My statement's
> implication, though of course, tongue in cheek, was that Even Adam
> thinks....
>
> So, for any friends or fans of Adam on this list, I apologize if that came
> out as a putdown or anything more than a jesting complaint.
>
>
I have also had good interaction with Adam.  I never found him getting
down on my not being a real admin.


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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Hal Wigoda
In reply to this post by Russell Miller
You aren't old.  

(Sent from iPhone, so please accept my apologies in advance for any spelling or grammatical errors.)

> On Jul 8, 2014, at 9:49 AM, Russell Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:09 AM, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> That presumes that your conservative attitude is the majority opinion
>> though. Systemd is one of the features that I have been looking forward
>> to in CentOS 7 because of the new capabilities it provides so while this
>> will surely drive some people away it will actually attract others and
>> if you think that this will lead to some sort of great exodus then I
>> think you are mistaken. Not everybody is this uncomfortable with change.
>>
> For the record, I'm not uncomfortable with change.  I'm uncomfortable with stupid,
> poorly thought out, monolithic change that ignores half a century of the UNIX philosophy.
> And creating a daemon that tries to handle everything but the kitchen sink and implementing
> it in such a way as to make it nearly incomprehensible to me certainly qualifies
> as that type of change.
>
> Sysvinit may not be perfect, but it's UNIX.  Systemd is...  a lot of things, but more
> of a windows-like solution than I"m comfortable with.  It's just dumb.  Surely there could
> have been a better way of accomplishing their goals without creating the equivalent of
> Cartman's Trapper Keeper.
>
> And yea, I'm kind of an old white guy (is 38 old?)  The guy who called that out as
> a negative is not helping his cause with me.  This old white guy has been doing Linux
> administration when some people on this list were pulling the hair of girls they liked
> and eating bugs.
>
> (and if that was yesterday, I don't want to hear about it. :))
>
> --Russell
>
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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Mauricio Tavares
In reply to this post by Gilbert Sebenste
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 12:36 PM, Gilbert Sebenste
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Jul 2014, Lamar Owen wrote:
>
>> Les, this is the wrong question to ask.  The question I ask is 'What
>> will be my return on investment be, in potentially lower costs, to run
>> my programs in a different way?'  If there is no ROI, or a really long
>> ROI, well, I still have C6 to run until 2020 while I invest the time in
>> determining if a new way is better or not.  Fact is that all of the
>> major Linux distributions are going this way; do you really think all of
>> them would change if this change were stupid?
>
> Yes. Look at Microsoft and Windows 8 and a similar attitude of "get over
> it, and just buy it". I'm not surprised that the head developer

      Apple is guilty of that too.

> was terminated days after its release. Lemmings think jumping off a
> cliff is a good idea, too. Several designers thinking its a good idea
> and implementing it across the board does NOT mean it's a good idea to the
> end user.
>
>> Even the Unix philosophy was new at one point.  Just because it works
>> doesn't mean it's the best that can be found.
>
> The Unix philosophy is not new, but blossomed after Windows put a
> stranglehold on everything else.
>
>> Consistency is not the only goal.  Efficiency should trump consistency,
>
> I am darn sick and tired about hearing of "efficiency". Efficiency does
> not 100% translate to effective productivity. Furthermore, user
> satisfaction is not counted into efficiency. I have heard people complain
> about air conditioners with extremely high efficiencies. The problem is
> that they don't put out much cold air. If the product is ineffective,
> very hard to work with, but efficient...I'd far rather use something much
> less cumbersome and effective but being less efficient. That translates
> to higher productivity and satisfaction, which you really want.
> Effectiveness and satisfaction should go hand in hand with efficiency,
> every time.
>
      I think you are making the case for maintainability.  Efficiency
is in a certain way what brought the Y2K bug. I'll take
maintainability over efficiency any day if I can (design constrains)
even if I was writing a game.

>> (Leaving part of my .sig in for a change, as I'm wearing the CIO hat in
>> this post.)
>
> People will vote with their feet on this. And, that "old white men" are
> complaining about this is ageist, racist, and demeaning to EVERYONE. I am
> really disappointed in Red Hat saying this, far more than the
> whole systemd concerns. As others have stated, change for the sake of
> change isn't good. Slapping across the face your primary customer base
> with deep insults isn't good, even if the customers are horribly wrong,
> which is quite the opposite here. And trying to splash perfume on a
> steaming dogpile is absurd.
>
> Don't worry, if this attitude continues with Red Hat, I won't let my rear
> hit the exit on the way out. And I'll do the best sort of advertising for
> this that I can: tell others the nonsense that is occurring, and to stay
> far away from it...
>
> Gilbert
>
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> (My opinions only!)                                                  ******
> *******************************************************************************
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[CentOS] OT - Re: Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

Robert Moskowitz
In reply to this post by Hal Wigoda

On 07/08/2014 12:44 PM, Hal Wigoda wrote:
> You aren't old.

And I am a young 21.  three times over.  All that means is I have to
learn new stuff now 3 times to get it right!  As some people on this
list will attest to :)

Soon I will be 26 (2^6).  So that means that I have to then learn
everything 6 times!

Age is what you make of it.  Senior moments are to be cherished. ;)'

>
> (Sent from iPhone, so please accept my apologies in advance for any spelling or grammatical errors.)
>
>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 9:49 AM, Russell Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:09 AM, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> That presumes that your conservative attitude is the majority opinion
>>> though. Systemd is one of the features that I have been looking forward
>>> to in CentOS 7 because of the new capabilities it provides so while this
>>> will surely drive some people away it will actually attract others and
>>> if you think that this will lead to some sort of great exodus then I
>>> think you are mistaken. Not everybody is this uncomfortable with change.
>>>
>> For the record, I'm not uncomfortable with change.  I'm uncomfortable with stupid,
>> poorly thought out, monolithic change that ignores half a century of the UNIX philosophy.
>> And creating a daemon that tries to handle everything but the kitchen sink and implementing
>> it in such a way as to make it nearly incomprehensible to me certainly qualifies
>> as that type of change.
>>
>> Sysvinit may not be perfect, but it's UNIX.  Systemd is...  a lot of things, but more
>> of a windows-like solution than I"m comfortable with.  It's just dumb.  Surely there could
>> have been a better way of accomplishing their goals without creating the equivalent of
>> Cartman's Trapper Keeper.
>>
>> And yea, I'm kind of an old white guy (is 38 old?)  The guy who called that out as
>> a negative is not helping his cause with me.  This old white guy has been doing Linux
>> administration when some people on this list were pulling the hair of girls they liked
>> and eating bugs.
>>
>> (and if that was yesterday, I don't want to hear about it. :))
>>
>> --Russell
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CentOS mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

mark-3
In reply to this post by Les Mikesell
Les Mikesell wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 10:58 AM, Lamar Owen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> And dynamic spinup of servers to handle increased load is a use case for
>> systemd's rapid bootup.  They go hand-in-hand.
>
> Don't know about your servers, but ours take much, much longer for
> their boot-time memory and hardware tests and initialization than
> anything the old style sysvinit scripts do.
>
Ours would, but we disabled the POST-time memory checks on most. When
you've got upwards of 64GB, it starts to take a while... and for 256G...
let's not go there, unless you've got 15 min.

        mark

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Re: [CentOS] Cemtos 7 : Systemd alternatives ?

mark-3
In reply to this post by Lamar Owen
Lamar Owen wrote:
> On 07/08/2014 11:58 AM, Les Mikesell wrote:
>> ... How much is this going to cost a typical company _just_ to keep
>> their existing programs working the same way over the next decade
>> (which is a relatively short time in terms of business-process changes)?
>
> Les, this is the wrong question to ask.  The question I ask is 'What
> will be my return on investment be, in potentially lower costs, to run
> my programs in a different way?'  If there is no ROI, or a really long

No, it's *not* the wrong question. Are you going to figure ROI INCLUDING
all the a) reworking, b) retraining (oh, that's right, almost *no* one
pays for training, other than on-the-jop or take your own lunch brown
bags) in the costs? And how 'bout how long it's going to recoup those
up-front costs (or where you planning on hiring all new people anyway?),
and will there be *another* change coming along in five years...?

> ROI, well, I still have C6 to run until 2020 while I invest the time in
> determining if a new way is better or not.  Fact is that all of the
> major Linux distributions are going this way; do you really think all of
> them would change if this change were stupid?

May I point to upstart, and that it lasted a few years, before folks
decided it was a Bad Idea? How many years of systemd do we have to compare
and contrast?
>
>> Even if the changes themselves are minor, you have to cover the cost
>> of paying some number of people for that 'get used to the syntax'
>> step. Personally I think Red Hat did everyone a disservice by
>> splitting the development side off to fedora and divorcing it from the
>> enterprise users that like the consistency.

YES!!!!!!!!! Let fedora duke it out with ubuntu; give us a *work* o/s.
>
> Consistency is not the only goal.  Efficiency should trump consistency,

Wrong. I *STRONGLY* disagree. Efficiency should be a goal off consistency,
and consistency should not be highly inefficient. However, as I've
mentioned before, when I go home after a hard day administering a
hundred-plus-many servers and workstations to my own workstation at home,
I do *NOT* want to debug my o/s. (And I'm putting off trying to upgrade my
router's DD-WRT, in the hope that I'll find something less buggy with USB
printer support).
<snip>

       mark

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